Religious Discussion and Debate

Also, Catholics believe that the Pope is God's voice on earth, and that Peter the Apostle was the first pope. You have to go through a priest to talk to God.

Protestants believe that God speaks through all Christians and to all Christians. They think that the Bible is the ultimate, complete work of God, and that no other book should be our ultimate guideline (which is not the same thing as saying they cannot read or consult other books, it just means that the ultimate authority is God, through the Bible).

And guys, like Kit said, let's not have a thermal nuclear war, okay? We can disagree without threatening relationships.

Okay makes sense. Yayz thanks. And yea, or nuclear wars! =P

Yes, ok... no wars... and yes hali that it right.

zac11th

The Pope is the visible Head of the Church on earth. St. Peter was the first Pope; Jesus Christ gave him the authority to rule over the entire Catholic Church and also gave him the power to invest bishops. Christ also gave the Pope the power to speak infallably, that is, without error, in matters of faith and morals.

I am a Roman Catholic.

Oh, okay. It'll be cool to debate with you! =D So what do you believe on sinning and forgiveness?

Wow, that puts a LOT of praise on the pope...

Where in the Bible does it say that Peter was the first pope?
Where does it say that Christ gave him authority?
Where does it say that the Pope is without error?

Nowhere, as far as I know. It is all made up by man.

I also do not agree with the worship of Mary. She was a good woman, yes. A god? No.

I am as protestant as they come. So...

Apparently they don't worship mary they just uhhhh...what was it...I forget but they don't worship her.

Mary was and is the Mother of God. In the Bible, the Angel Gabriel announced to her that she was to be the Mother of the Savior.

@Kit: We don't worship her, we honor her highly. Wouldn't you honor the Mother of God too?

I will get back to you on the Pope stuff.

How does that make her a God though??

I would say Bowing Down and praying to her and such, is worshiping.
Wouldn't you?

We do not bow down to her, as in worshipping, we do that to honor her. We ask her to intercede for us with Jesus, because the Mother of God will have alot of influence with Jesus, since Jesus is God.

@Kit: When did I say that Mary was a god?

Matthew 16: 15-19

....And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

...

"You shall do homage to the Lord your God; Him alone shall you adore." - Luke 4:8

Didn't say Mary, it said the Lord your God.

And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and He is the propitiation for our sins." - 1 John 2:1.

Doesn't say that we need to talk to Mary first.

Oh, I thought you were responding to Walter's saying she was a God so I thought you believed she was, nvm.

Matthew 16: 15-19

....And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Above ^ It seems like Jesus is making Peter the head of His Church, doesn't it?

Also read John 21: 15-19. Jesus is telling Peter to "feed my lambs". We are the lambs; Jesus is telling Peter to care for the Church.



About Mary, we don't have to intercede with her, but we do, because her prayers are very effective. We are not adoring Mary, we are honoring her. In the Bible, it says "You shall do homage to the Lord your God", that means the supreme worship, that which is due only to God. We honor Mary as the Mother of God, but do not give her the worship that belongs to God alone.

I'll take a look at that.

And what makes you think she's even Alive? Does the bible say she rose from the dead? How can a dead persons prayers be effective?

And again. If creating statues of her, bowing to her, praying to her, and so on is not worship, what is? We do the same for the lord!

She is in Heaven!

True. We make statues of her to remind us of her, so that we will be reminded to pray to God through her. Seeing a statue of her helps us to concentrate on her and our prayers, just as statues of Our Lord help us think about him.

How do you KNOW she is in heaven? The bible only lists 4 ascensions. Enoch, Moses, Elijah and Christ. Why did they not list Mary's, if it did happen?

... 2nd commandment. "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

She was assumed, body and soul, into Heaven by God.

If so, why do we make images and statues of Jesus? It says "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image." Jesus is saying that we are not to commit idolatry, which is worshipping statues and graven images.

Again... How do you know? You have given me no proof or evidence yet...

I don't worship statues of Jesus. I don't make statues of Jesus. My entire denomination has never made a statue of Jesus.

Walter313 wrote:

How do you KNOW she is in heaven? The bible only lists 4 ascensions. Enoch, Moses, Elijah and Christ. Why did they not list Mary's, if it did happen?

... 2nd commandment. "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

*cough* *cough* Moses did not ascend into heaven... he died because he lost his temper and struck the rock instead of tapping it... i think... but i know he did not ascend.

zac11th

Walter313 wrote:

Again... How do you know? You have given me no proof or evidence yet...

I don't worship statues of Jesus. I don't make statues of Jesus. My entire denomination has never made a statue of Jesus.

The Assumption of Mary is a truth which has been handed down for over 1800 years through the Tradition of the Catholic Church. And the Bible does talk about Tradition, and Jesus tells us to follow not only the Bible, Sola Scriptura, but also the Tradition which has been handed down to us.

Don't you have pictures of your loved ones in your house? We keep pictures of our loved ones in our houses to remind us of them, just like we keep pictures of Jesus and Mary in our houses to remind us of them, because we love them.

Where's it say to follow tradition? And also, do you bow down to those pictures in /honor/ of them?

We bow down to the pictures to show respect to the people they represent, not the actual pictures. The saints were people who lived extraordinarily holy lives on earth, and loved God very much, and are now with God in Heaven. In showing respect to those friends of God, we are honoring God Himself.

About Tradition:

John 12:25-- "There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually , I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written."

Not everything is in the Bible.

1 Corinthians 11:2-- St. Paul says, "I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you."

2 Thessalonians 2:15-- St. Paul also says, "Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours."

2 Thessalonians 3:6-- St. Paul says again, "We instruct you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not according to the tradition they received from us."

St. Paul came over 1000 years before Martin Luther and John Calvin, and all the other Protestants. The Catholic Church, with the law and order it helped to maintain throughout the Middle Ages, could not have erred for 1000 years, then be corrected by one monk who stood against the whole of the Catholic Church and started Protestantism. (I am referring to Martin Luther.)

Zac: I'm referring to the Transfiguration. Proof that Moses is a live. "And Behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias" - Matthew 17

Wertqu: And also, I don't bow to my relatives photos... at all.

Have you not studied your history? The catholics KILLED all the people that protested! That's why it never got through. Martin Luther was the first one that made a difference.

And Tradition isn't above the bible. And my bible is different than yours. Mine says...

1 Corinthians 11:2 - Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

Ordinances are Rules and Guidelines. Meaning that Paul gave the followers of Christ Rules to follow, and he is praising them for keeping them.

2 Thessalonians 2. That means religious rules passed on, not worship of a human.

2 Thessalonians 3. It says "they received from us". Find me one verse in the bible where paul says "bow to mary"

And you said something about Jesus telling us to follow not only the bible? Can I get a verse?

wertquuuu500 wrote:

Matthew 16: 15-19

....And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Above ^ It seems like Jesus is making Peter the head of His Church, doesn't it?

This is an incomplete quote, but I thought I'd just deal with this part, since I do have a little knowledge about it. (My pastor has studied this for years) If you take the text at just it's surface, yes, it appears to be just what you said, wertqu: Jesus is putting Peter as the head of the church. But what you haven't taken into account is the context.

Jesus and the apostles were, at this point, just outside of the city called Caesarea Philippi. The name may not mean much to us today, but to the people of the early church an of Jesus' day, it was like saying "Las Vegas". It was the porn/sin center of that region, and many things so horrible went on there, I won't go into it. You get the idea.

The Jews would never dream of going into that region, so the apostles must have been shocked when Jesus took them there. Not only that but he led them to a very specific place, just on the outskirts of the city. Caesarea Philippi was built with it's back to a large hill/cliff and out of this cliff ran a river. The water was so fast that even the best swimmers had no chance if they fell in. It was said that the entrance to the cave from whence the river flowed was the entrance to the underworld: Hades, or as our Bible translates it, Hell.

The Gates of Hell. Get it? Jesus was saying that he would build his church in a place that symbolized evil for the entire Jewish nation, showing that God has the power to redeem even the most wicked sinners. What is really cool, is that is did actually happen! (It always does, when Jesus speaks) When Paul became a missionary, a church was built on that very same place, just outside of the wreck of Caesarea Philippi. A church built on that rock, and the Gates of Hell could not overcome it. Doesn't God have a cool sense of irony?