Religious Discussion and Debate

Walter313 wrote:

Zac: I'm referring to the Transfiguration. Proof that Moses is a live. "And Behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias" - Matthew 17

Wertqu: And also, I don't bow to my relatives photos... at all.

Have you not studied your history? The catholics KILLED all the people that protested! That's why it never got through. Martin Luther was the first one that made a difference.

And Tradition isn't above the bible. And my bible is different than yours. Mine says...

1 Corinthians 11:2 - Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

Ordinances are Rules and Guidelines. Meaning that Paul gave the followers of Christ Rules to follow, and he is praising them for keeping them.

2 Thessalonians 2. That means religious rules passed on, not worship of a human.

2 Thessalonians 3. It says "they received from us". Find me one verse in the bible where paul says "bow to mary"

And you said something about Jesus telling us to follow not only the bible? Can I get a verse?

no... not alive... he was brought down from heaven... it does NOT mean he did not die...

zac11th

Zac: I didn't say he didn't die. He DID die. The bible makes that very clear. But he is alive today, up in heaven.

Hahli: That is VERY interesting! I seriously had never seen it that way. Thank you for that!

Hahli: Wow, that's fascinating, you sure know your stuff, wow! :0
Walter: Ummm...anyone who /dies/ is /dead/, they're just in heaven...

drock: Actually... not in my book... don't you remember that talk we had a while back about that? Everyone will be against me on this but...

Dead people aren't in heaven... as of yet. They are quite simply... Dead. D-E-A-D.

As for moses, I'm pretty sure there is a verse SOMEwhere that says he was resurrected after death.

Where is Moses then?

When we are created by God (not Charles Darwin!), we are on earth. When we die, we will either go to Heaven eternally, Purgatory for a time to be purified before eventually going to Heaven, or Hell eternally. Our actions on earth determine what place we go to; we have the choice to be good or bad, and thus go to Heaven or Hell.

Heaven is real:

Jn 18:36-- Jesus said, "My kingdom does not belong to this world."
Heb 9:24-- "For Christ did not enter into a sanctuary made by hands, a copy of the true one, but heaven itself, that he might now appear before God on our behalf."

Jn 14:2-- "In my Father's house there are many dwelling places. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you?"

Jn 14:6 "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

And Hahli, Jesus made Peter head of the whole Church, not just a certain Church in a bad area. It was probably good to have a Church there anyways, so that the Catholics could start trying to convert people.
Remember, Jesus chose to come as a Baby in a little town called Nazareth, and the shepherds were the first to hear about his birth. When He grew older, he ate with "tax collectors and prostitutes," and saved from stoning a woman who had committed adultery. Our Lord doesn't always do things the comfortable and normal way, does He? He said that He had come to help sinners, not just saints. It seems like the people in Caesarea Philippi were the kind of people Jesus would want to convert and help, to bring them out of their sin.

Walter313 wrote:

Zac: I didn't say he didn't die. He DID die. The bible makes that very clear. But he is alive today, up in heaven.

Hahli: That is VERY interesting! I seriously had never seen it that way. Thank you for that!

*Stifles laugh* Everyone has eternal life. Some live forever in hell and some in heaven.

zac11th

You are right zac11th. By your actions on earth, you choose whether you will go to Heaven or Hell when you die.

Ugh... I'm going to have to start at the very beginning.

And heaven does exist, I never said it didn't.

Okay, God created Humans who could live forever as long as they followed God's law. They disobeyed, and thus lost their ability to live forever. But, God was merciful and sent Jesus to die for us, so that we could give our lives to him and be saved. That doesn't mean that we go to heaven immediately after death. We are quite simply ... Dead until he returns to earth.

If you are going to reply to, or laugh about, this post, I ask you to read this entire post. If you don't, you aren't ready to reply.

So, here is why I believe what I believe...

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First argument - Why would God use death as punishment for sinning, if death just brings us to a better place? That's more a reward for sinning. Isn't it?

Second Argument - The bible says that "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:20 The soul being... you. not your body, you. If your soul is dead, you can't be sent to hell eternally.

Third Argument - The bible says:
"All that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth." John 5:28, 29.
"David ... is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." "For David is not ascended into the heavens." Acts 2:29, 34.
"If I wait, the grave is mine house." Job 17:13.

Notice, that they all say that they are HERE. Not in heaven. Not in Hell. They are in their graves, waiting. David will be saved in God's kingdom. However, he is in his grave now, where he awaits the resurrection.

Fourth Argument - The bible also says:
"The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10.

"The dead praise not the Lord." Psalms 115:17.

The first verses say that the Dead know nothing. That there is no reward for them. Everything is gone. They are... dead. The Second verse say they praise not the lord. Anyone in Heaven will be praising the lord. And it didn't say that there was an exception.

Fifth Argument - It also says:
"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." "His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them." Job 14:12, 21.

So the dead don't know what's going on. If they truly were "in heaven looking down upon us", the bible would be lying.

"Neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:6.

Pretty self-explanatory.

Now, the verse says they will not rise till the heavens pass away. You may think that means they never will rise again. But no. Look at this verse:
"The day of the Lord will come ... in the which the heavens shall pass away."
2 Peter 3:10.

So the day of the lord, the heavens will pas and the dead will rise again.

Argument 6 - Now, what about the people who die that are saved? Read on...

"Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12.
"The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, ... and the dead in Christ shall rise ... and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17.
"We shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, ... and the dead shall be raised incorruptible. ... For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Corinthians 15:51-53.

And I would recommend reading 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 17:

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

That is the verse that got me to start reading into this. It doesn't say And the dead in christ who have been in heaven will come back down from heaven and then rise first. It says, and the dead in christ shall rise first.

All these verses say that the dead will rise when Jesus returns, not before.

Argument 7 - Now, I would like to say where the idea of no real death came from. Please do not take offense to this.

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die." Genesis 3:4.

Satan has lied since the beginning of the earth about death. He said that sin will not bring death. That we will live forever anyway.

And... here is a little bit of stuff I found somewhere else...

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1. Didn't the thief on the cross go to paradise with Christ the day He died? (Luke 23:43 )

No. In fact, on Sunday morning Jesus said to Mary, "I am not yet ascended to my Father." John 20:17. This shows that Christ did not go to heaven at death. Also note that the punctuation of the Bible is not inspired, but was added by men. The comma in Luke 23:43 should be placed after the words "to day" rather than before, so the passage should read, "Verily I say unto thee to day, shalt thou be with me in paradise." Or, "I'm telling you today--when it seems that I can save no one, when I myself am being crucified as a criminal--I give you the assurance today that you will be with me in paradise." Christ's kingdom is set up at His second coming (Matthew 25:31), and all the righteous of all ages will enter it at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) and not at death.

2. Doesn't the Bible speak of the "undying," "immortal" soul? (1 Timothy 1:17 )

No, the undying, immortal soul is not mentioned in the Bible. The word "immortal" is found only once in the Bible, and it is in reference to God (1 Timothy 1:17).

3. At death the body returns to dust and the spirit (or breath) returns to God. But where does the soul go? (Ecclesiastes 12:7 )

It goes nowhere. Instead, it simply ceases to exist. Two things must be combined to make a soul: body and breath. When the breath departs, the soul ceases to exist because it is a combination of two things. When you turn off a light, where does the light go? It doesn't go anywhere. It just ceases to exist. Two things must combine to make a light: a bulb and electricity. Without the combination, a light is impossible. So with the soul; unless body and breath are combined, there can be no soul. There is no such thing as a disembodied soul.

4. Does the word "soul" ever mean anything other than a living being? (Psalms 139:14 )

Yes, it may mean also (1) life itself, or (2) the mind, or intellect. No matter which meaning is intended, the soul is still a combination of two things (body and breath), and it ceases to exist at death.

5. Can you explain John 11:26, which says, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die"? (John 11:26 )

This refers not to the first death, which all people die (Hebrews 9:27), but to the second death, which only the wicked die and from which there is no resurrection (Revelation 2:11; 21:8 ).

6. Matthew 10:28 says, "Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul." Doesn't this prove that the soul is undying? (Matthew 10:28 )

No, it proves the opposite. The last half of the same verse proves that souls do die. It says, "But rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." The word "soul" here means life and refers to eternal life, which is a gift (Romans 6:23) that will be given to the righteous at the last day (John 6:54). No one can take away the eternal life that God bestows. (See also Luke 12:4, 5.)

7. Doesn't 1 Peter 4:6 say the gospel was preached to dead people? (1 Peter 4:6 )

No, it says the gospel "was" preached to those who "are" dead. They are dead now, but the gospel "was" preached to them while they were yet living.

8. What about the souls crying out from under the altar in Revelation 6:9, 10? Doesn't this show that souls do not die? (Revelation 6:9 )

No. This cry was figurative, as was the cry of Abel's blood (Genesis 4:10). The word "soul" here means people (or living beings) who had been slain for their faith. Surely no one believes that souls who die literally lie under the altar, nor do people believe that the righteous beg God to punish their enemies. Rather, the righteous beg for mercy for their enemies, as Christ did on the cross (Luke 23:34).

9. Doesn't the Bible say Christ went and preached to lost souls in hell between His crucifixion and resurrection? (1 Peter 3:18 )

No, the Bible passage in question is 1 Peter 3:18-20. The preaching was done "by the Spirit" (verse 18) in Noah's day--to people who were then living (verses 19, 20). The "spirits in prison" refers to people whose lives were in bondage to Satan. (See Psalms 142:7; Isaiah 42:6, 7; 61:1; and Luke 4:18.)

Guys, play nice! =P Respect other's beliefs.

? ? ?
Who are you directing this at?

Wertqu has respected mine, and I think I'm respecting his... I think...

Zac, "*stifles laugh*" was a little rude unless I misunderstood. Also just a reminder.

Ah yes, agreed. He was laughing at me, when I believe he had misunderstood.

No i did not laugh... i stifled it XD anyway sorry... *sigh* this is a good topic... i am glad i was bored enough to type this CX

zac11th

For now I am just going to answer your arguments.

1. Death is a punishment for sin. In the beginning, man could live forever and was with God. After he sinned, then death, pain, suffering came into the world as a result of man’s sin. When people die, usually their death is painful, whether physically, mentally, or emotionally. Pain has come into the world as a result of sin. When we die, we will ultimately go to either heaven or hell. Before, there was no possibility of going to hell because we could not die. Death is a sort of doorway to heaven or hell. Now, since we have sinned, we die at the end of our earthly life, and then, if we have sinned and died in the state of great sin, then we will go to hell. If we had not sinned, then we would not have death, and thus not had the possibility of going to hell. As it is, we have death, which is a punishment for our sin.

2. The soul of man is immortal. When we die, we will be personally judged in a judgment called the particular judgment. That decision in the particular judgment will determine whether we go to heaven or hell. Later, when Christ comes at the end of the world, everyone in the world will be judged in the general judgment. The decisions made in the particular judgment will not be changed or reversed during the general judgment. At death, our souls will be separated from our earthly bodies. Then, at the general judgment, our bodies will be resurrected and united to our souls, and will not be separated again.
We will have our resurrected bodies together with our immortal souls for eternity.

1 Samuel 25:29-- "Yet the soul of my Lord shall be bound up in the bundle of life with the Lord your God ..."

Ecclesiastes 4:20, 21-- "All go unto one place; all are of the dust and return to the dust. Who knows if the spirit of man goes upward and if the spirit of the beast goes downward to the earth?"

If we have led a good life, then the spirit (soul) of “man” (us being good) will go upwards to heaven, and if we have died in sin, then the spirit (soul) of the “beast” (us in sin) will go down to hell.

3. “All those in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth.” That pertains to the general judgment, when the bodies of all men will be resurrected.

True. David’s body was in the grave, but his soul was in heaven. The general judgment had not yet come yet, so his body was still in the grave.

4. The Bible is talking about the dead bodies in the graves. You are right, the bodies are dead and are buried, cannot do anything, and have no more emotions or feelings. The soul is immortal and is different from the body, and is in either heaven or hell. If it is in heaven, then it will be praising God. Later, at the end of the world, the bodies of all men will be resurrected. The dead body is different from the soul, however, and the dead body is different from the resurrected body.

5. Yes, dead man does not rise up or know anything. As I said before, the soul of man is separated from the body at death and will not be reunited until the general judgment.

“Till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.”

The Bible is talking about the sky in this text. At the end of the world, the sky will fall and the earth will be destroyed, as described in Revelation. When the end of the world comes and the “heavens be no more”, the general judgment will take place, and then the bodies of all men shall awaken and be resurrected.

6. Revelation 22:12-- "Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17-- "The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, ... and the dead in Christ shall rise ... and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

1 Corinthians 15:51-53-- "We shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, ... and the dead shall be raised incorruptible. ... For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

All these verses pertain to the general judgment, when “the dead in Christ shall rise” (be resurrected) and the “dead shall be raised incorruptible”.

“For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”

When the dead earthly bodies of men put on immortality, they will be united with their immortal souls and live forever in either heaven or hell, and if they need purification, will be sent to be purified for a short time in Purgatory before going to heaven.

The dead will be resurrected when Christ returns. No dead people have been resurrected before Christ returned, except for a select few mentioned in the Bible.

7. There is a real earthly death for our bodies, but not for our souls. Since our souls are immortal, they will never die. Our bodies will die on earth, but then at the general judgment, they will become resurrected. Our bodies will never stay dead forever, but they do really die on earth; they are just resurrected later. Christ really died on the Cross, but three days later, he resurrected from the dead. We will be dead for a while like Christ, but will rise up at the general judgment.

1. That is a pretty good counter argument. Good people are rewarded, bad are punished. I have no counter as of yet.

2. I think the definition of Soul needs to be made clear before we move on.

Let's pause the current discussion until that has been made clear.

What is the Soul? Is it our Spirit, our Body, or both?

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Also, I'm going to change the topic name, since that is no longer the main topic of discussion.

The soul is our Spirit. Everyone has a soul, and the soul is a spirit. It is not a tangible thing, and it is not composed of natural matter. It is a part of us.

Walter313 wrote:

? ? ?
Who are you directing this at?

Wertqu has respected mine, and I think I'm respecting his... I think...

Yes you are respecting my arguments Walter.

Regarding my respect for your arguments... Ok good, I don't like people disrespecting me or my arguments, so I couldn't live with myself if people saw me as being disrespectful.

Basically, the soul is our conscious being, is what your saying?

About the spirit, that seems to make sense...

It does seem too... But I would like to disagree. (as usual Xp... Wow, seems like we disagree on everything... Guess it's cause my denomination...)

I believe that the Body and Spirit are 2 different things, and that the soul is a combination of them.

"The body without the spirit (or breath) is dead." James 2:26.
"The spirit of God (the breath which God gave him) is in my nostrils." Job 27:3.

The spirit that returns to God at death is the breath of life. Nowhere in all of God's book does the "spirit" have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the "breath of life" and nothing more.

What is a "soul"?

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Genesis 2:7.

A soul is a living being. A soul is always a combination of two things: body plus breath. A soul cannot exist unless body and breath are combined. God's Word teaches that we are souls.

In basic terms... Breath (or Spirit) + Body = Soul.

Oh, and btw **glares at a certain someone**, I'm not twisting this around.

I'm gonna text Sean about this tomorrow, I'll post what he says.

Okay, so my youth pastor was talking about heaven last night, and when Christ returns and stuff. But he didn't go into where we go when we die so I asked him that, and he said that we go to present heaven and then when Christ returns new jerusalem comes down along with everybody who died. Basically.

*Sigh*

Did he give any verses? I did.

Alright!

Our soul is a spirit, not a tangible thing. It is a part of us, like this analogy: God is in the world, in everything, but is separate from the world. God in the world=Soul in body, if you will. If our soul disappeared, then we would stop living as special beings created by God, and just be a much higher class of animals.

I agree. I guess this will be one of those 'wait until we get to heaven and then ask Jesus' things.